Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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Karxrida

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gholdengo is very much suspect worthy and deserves a deeper dive for sure, but genesect is a bonafide Uber with no place in OU that has only gotten better with more years under its belt and only proved itself to be more broken
I would be hard-pressed to claim Genesect got better when it's losing access to a bunch of moves (Rock Polish, Shift Gear, Extreme Speed) that made non-Scarf sets (and especially physical sets) viable. And Scarf cannot function in a Spikes-infested meta when it wants to U-turn spam but takes constant chip that easily puts it into range for things like an unboosted Kingambit's Sucker Punch.

252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 135-160 (47.7 - 56.5%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO

Alternatively, you U-turn into a Static Zapdos and cry. This isn't even taking into account how Base 99 Speed is already awkward as fuck for a Scarfer since it means it cannot revenge kill a bunch of Booster mons.

The only other set you can run is mixed/special HDB, but unless someone finds the magic EV spread to live some hits then Genesect isn't doing much. It doesn't have Intimidate to fake being bulky like Landorus or Regenerator to not die like Tornadus.

I also seriously doubt Genesect could take amazing advantage of Tera. Using the mech leads to the bug losing what little defensive utility it has by being Bug/Steel, physical sets still don't have the best coverage between a bad natural STAB combo and lack of options (said options: Zen Headbutt, Gunk Shot, Shadow Claw, possibly Blaze Kick idk) and probably wanting to hold onto U-turn, and the Scarf set would super super hate being locked into a random coverage move that suddenly cannot kill whatever's in front of it because the opponent became a Fairy or something.

I don't care one way or the other because Darkrai is my priority but I feel this observation is a bit disingenuous. Genesect used to thrive on its unpredictability and it's losing a ton of that.

If you think Genesect would be fine in OU, you are crazy. Genesect has multiple good sets like CB, Scarf, special sets and Techno Blast, Genesect have no hard counters. Genesect has been banned since BW for the same reasons: too fast, hit really hard and very unpredictable.
No one would use Techno Blast when Genesect's model changes based on which Drive it's holding. Telegraphing your item is supremely awful for Genesect. I also don't see Choice Band as a threat without Extreme Speed.
 
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Talked to Srn in TrainerAid discord about this, whilst Tera Blast Fairy might seem good, I think Darkrai as a mon is too prone to being revenge killed and is too squishy anyways so the investment of Tera Blast might not be worth it, its also not as strong as stuff like Focus Blast (which also misses most the time). The main thing is Darkrai's speed; its a good speed but its outsped everything that beats it pretty much, and dropping focus blast makes u prone to Kingambit and TingLu, which +2 Fairy Blast is most definitely doesn't kill without a life orb, theres many matchups where Darkrai misses out the OHKO on important things at +2, such as Iron Moth, Ogerpon-Wellspring, Lando-t, Manaphy, Offensive Zapdos, Walking Wake etc. which all live on a roll or die on a roll.
Darkrai most certainly needs a life orb if it wants to be a sweeper.
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 277-327 (92 - 108.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 224 HP / 0 SpD Cinderace: 340-402 (95.2 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 324-382 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 270-318 (79.1 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Zapdos: 292-345 (90.9 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 12 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 313-370 (91.5 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Corviknight: 306-360 (76.6 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Thanks for the reply. You make a good point. I don't see life orb being optimal on Darkrai since, as you've mentioned, it's squishy and wants to conserve health. However, I do think it's important to consider that just a little hazards chip can turn many of those +2 non-life orb rolls into reliable OHKOs. This will not be hard to achieve with Ghold as an excellent partner to keep up hazards. In mid-late game, several of the mons you've listed like Corv, Lando, and Zapdos will realistically have taken some small chip which will enable Darkrai to clean more easily. It should also be noted that all of these mons fail to OHKO Darkrai back, though several can deal sufficient damage to open up revenge killing via a priority user.

Revenge killing Darkrai may be a bit harder said than done. The two mons that naturally outspeed it are Dragapult and Zamazenta, but they both have to be careful of clicking their dragon and fighting STABs, respectively, for fear of a Tera Fairy. Booster Moth and Valiant are solid, albeit one-time, revenge-killing options.

A Nasty Plot / Dark Pulse / Tera Fairy Blast Darkrai can choose a final coverage option to deal with some of these "roll" calcs, such as ice beam for Spdef Lando, Dnite, and Zapdos or Focus Blast for Gambit.

I agree that Darkrai without tera would be fine in OU, but I still think that tera will push it over the edge. Perhaps the easiest option is to simply let it drop and see what happens; it can always be quickbanned later.
 
what pockemon do you think will rise to OU this month?
I want to say Moltres since it has gotten SIGNIFICANTLY better with Gliscor gone, but I barely see other people use it on the ladder. Amoonguss, I think will squeeze into OU since I have been seeing that quite a bit. Garganacl for sure will be returning to OU this month. The meta is far more hospitable to its qualities.
 
I’ve been thinking about how amazing “offensive” or semi-offensive pokemon are right now with simple 4A + HDB or 3A + HDB + non boosting status.

it’s super meta right now because a lot of these pokemon can shred through hyper offense / bulky offense teams once the bottleneck checks are cracked open. Both tend to be near useless against the bulkiest or stalliest teams, but their utility in all other matchups is very potent.

the other advantage is the defensive utility. For example iron moth, greninja, samurott, zapdos and cinderace can all switch into the premier threat gholdengo. Zapdos, iron moth and cinderace can come in on rillabooms, dragapult can come in on waterpon, etc.

perhaps the easiest example of each that comes to mind is:

4A + HDB Greninja :greninja: often cracks open an HO team due to their reliance on some combination of waterpon or manaphy + kingambit or samurott to check it. Rillaboom usage has also decreased on HO since the sneasler ban. Battle bond tends to perform better against most meta threats, whilst protean with u turn and/or gunk shot can perform against or surprise off-meta threats better, like regenerators and Azumaril.

3A + HDB + non boosting status Cinderace :cinderace: has court change, again a great asset against HO’s webs. Usually running wisp and court change is an-over commitment, so the 3A sets dominate with pyro ball, u turn and court change appearing on most sets with a flex fourth slot. Hi Jump kick is very meta right now, as it’s cinderace only weapon against the rising heatran and Garganacl, but comes at the cost of prediction if there are ghosts or zapdos. Sucker punch is also super meta due to the strong need for priority in a fast meta.

I’ve made a list of the various pokemon that can 3A or 4A, how would you rank them?

OU by Usage
  • Cinderace - :cinderace: the main set is court change. 4A can work too
  • Dragapult - :dragapult: wisp or thunder wave with stabs and u turn
  • Enamorus - :enamorus: superpower on a 4A set with Tera steel can often 6-0 stall if the needle is threaded. Also has use verse gambit
  • Great Tusk - :great tusk: have seen plenty of 4A and 3A. The HDB allows for a more reliable spin.
  • Greninja - :greninja: can make use of both protean and battle bond. Tho predictable either way. Can use 3A with spikes or the 4A set.
  • Iron Moth - :iron moth: 4A is rarer, but works. 3A with sub or morning sun can do some work, sometimes ends the game earlier than expected if it has the right coverage
  • Samurott-Hisui - :samurott-hisui: 4A is very common. Possibly the only pokemon in OU that can viably run 4 moves with the same type!
  • Slowking-Galar - :Slowking-galar: this is the odd one out as it’s less offensive than the rest, but still technically in the conversation. The 3A with chilly reception can do some serious damage and it’s an excellent pivot.
  • Zamazenta - :zamazenta: 4A is making a bit more of an appearance than the standard iron defense set. Can force some switches or Tera types against HO.
  • Zapdos - :zapdos: perhaps one of the best known bulky 3A HDB users since HDB became a thing. Hurricane is awesome

Observations:
  1. the average speed of the 4A and 3A HDB pokemon is very high, Slowking is an outlier. I wonder why slower Pokémon’s don’t have as much utility with this type of role.
  2. only about half of them commonly carry pivot moves

what non OU by usage pokemon work with this kind of role?

there’s a few non-OU pokemon worth mentioning:
  • tornadus - :tornadus-therian: outclassed by zapdos as a bulky hurricane user that checks the grounded physical attackers
  • Weavile - :Weavile: 4A can work, but it hits so weak without +2 and can easily fall victim to the many bulky Pokémon’s or surprise Tera types. Outclassed by the other dark types.
  • Meowscarada - :meowscarada:. Hits are quite weak without band, and a little slow without scarf. Unlike greninja it can’t bypass those weaknesses by threatening to get a battle bond boost. Unlike cinderace it can’t make use of protean to use a stab, and then protean to another stab. Outclassed by the other dark types
 
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I’m a bit rusty so mediocre takes incoming but a huge grievance I have with this thread when discussing the meta ESPECIALLY when using calcs:

can we STOP ASSUMING that everything is always at 100% full health totally healthy/unstatused and only needed to check the one mon in question the whole game, and comes in on no/limited hazards. Just because Tera dark clodsire eats a LO focus blast from darkrai does NOT mean darkrai is healthy, Jesus.

you can tell a lot of people here have never broken 1400 on the ladder and spend more time team building and talking than actually laddering and getting experience with the game. Checking something isn’t just “always have a hard counter with recovery to switch in and take 2 hits”. And just because something can hard counter doesn’t mean it isn’t broken.

but TL;DR stop assuming all your mons are at 100% health with no status, no hazards, not required to check anything else throughout the game etc
 
If Magearna can drop at the beginning of HOME, despite two gens of brokenness/near-brokenness and a few key buffs, I would not be opposed to dropping Genesect based on principle alone.
I mean the difference with Magearna is that she was fine (i.e. not banworthy, she's absolutely cracked) in Gen 7 and has never actually started in Ubers. Genesect has been qb'd every time and most of the time its best set was a choiced set. Lando-I should not be in the tier for even a frame given how webs are considered playable at the moment.

ok now to the real meat


"same margin", if the council decided that margin was ok the result of the suspect and survey must be accepted even if gambit wasn't banned for a single vote
My point is that both of these pokemon were incredibly divisive. You're just intentionally misinterpreting me at this point.

thinking someone is pro or against a pokemon makes me laugh

what people want is stop asking again and again tiering action bypassing the survey system which turned to be so effective; in just 2 months ou is so much more playable because both council and players put a lot of effort working together
Anyone who voted DNB is pro gambit are you insane. People can keep asking to have us shut up about gambit but that won't make the problem go away.

nothing to do with gambit, even without him tusk would be the only spinner in the tier, cind would be the only way to punish screen users in every situation and so on
Actually if a bulky dark resist wasn't mandatory, there are ostensibly worse options in the lower tiers that would be worth considering due to their other traits (i.e. Iron Treads). Iron Treads does have a better matchup into Gholdengo but the problem is that it's not a physical wall or a Kingambit check (among other things that are exacerbated by Gambit and Ghold's stranglehold on the meta).

90% of pokemons in this gen are bad or uber material, we must play with that 10%;
This makes no sense

idgaf of the remaining post
lmao
 

Finchinator

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I would be hard-pressed to claim Genesect got better when it's losing access to a bunch of moves (Rock Polish, Shift Gear, Extreme Speed) that made non-Scarf sets (and especially physical sets) viable. And Scarf cannot function in a Spikes-infested meta when it wants to U-turn spam but takes constant chip that easily puts it into range for things like an unboosted Kingambit's Sucker Punch.
As I have said numerous times now, I am not speculating about things that aren’t confirmed or the future — my stating it got better was in reference to it improving from generation to generation before this.

Also, for those who have played Genesect in prior generations, Choice Scarf has never been “the broken set” and Shift Gear only was really used in one generation ever. Obviously we have no way of knowing what it would do now, but we could say the same about Arceus really. Point being: arguments about these changes would hardly move the ball for me, but again: I don’t really have interest in going down the theorymon hole and these are discussions I will save my personal engagement on for a later date when we have some actual basis.
 
Bro we're so lacking on hazard removal I was considering fucking bulky quaquaval. The meta is so fucked up you have no idea the strange stew I'm concocting rn.
On a similar note, I've concocted the single worst waterpon check ever and the only reason it's not even worse is because Azumarill doesn't have a trapping move, nor did they ever learn one that wasn't water type.
 
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YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
Bro we're so lacking on hazard removal I was considering fucking bulky quaquaval. The meta is so fucked up you have no idea the strange stew I'm concocting rn.
It's 100% a niche pick, but Quaquaval has still the potential to put some work in games between Moxie, Aqua Step, SD/Bulk Up and Rapid Spin. Hell, it even has Roost for longevity, or Flip Turn for momentum if you wanna try a more offensive set. Give it a try, it might actually work for you.
 
It's 100% a niche pick, but Quaquaval has still the potential to put some work in games between Moxie, Aqua Step, SD/Bulk Up and Rapid Spin. Hell, it even has Roost for longevity, or Flip Turn for momentum if you wanna try a more offensive set. Give it a try, it might actually work for you.
The problem is that it's a secondary spinner (mandatory tusk lmao) and also I do not want to give waterpon free turns even if the thing I devised to deal with it does just sit on most variants.
 

YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
The problem is that it's a secondary spinner (mandatory tusk lmao) and also I do not want to give waterpon free turns even if the thing I devised to deal with it does just sit on most variants.
Then how about Brave Bird? Or you could even use Waterpon as an opportunity to set up, just run Tera Dragon and you wall that thing completely, you can then try to SD or Bulk Up and go for the sweep. If you're looking for a Tusk partner to help with Hazard control, though, you may wanna look into Hatterene, which always comes in handy with Magic Bounce.
 
Then how about Brave Bird? Or you could even use Waterpon as an opportunity to set up, just run Tera Dragon and you wall that thing completely, you can then try to SD or Bulk Up and go for the sweep. If you're looking for a Tusk partner to help with Hazard control, though, you may wanna look into Hatterene, which always comes in handy with Magic Bounce.
I'll consider it! You are the Quaquaval knower and a notable enthusiast of a pokemon I found annoying pre-home but I do want to check it out because it has a bunch of good qualities.
 
I don't know if it's the right thread for this, but here is my opinion about what should and shouldn't be unbanned after DLC2. Off course, it's pure theory.

I can explain myself about some of these. I clearly think chien pao and bax are too strong, but it can depend on which mons are back. Actually, the whole "retest" list depends of which pokemons are back.
Off course, if they still are too strong, they will be banned. (Urshifu Water is in the retest list)

However, I am completely sure about the list of pokemons that should never be allowed (except Melmetal eventually but I think it won't be in the game).

I also want Gambit and Ghold to be banned, and I don't think the dlc will make them balanced, but perhaps will I be surprised. I think Ghold is far too restrictive for every single ou metagame, because of its ability, typing, and offensive power, but I know it's too late for the current metagame.
Screenshot_20231128-145950_Chrome.jpg
 
It's 100% a niche pick, but Quaquaval has still the potential to put some work in games between Moxie, Aqua Step, SD/Bulk Up and Rapid Spin. Hell, it even has Roost for longevity, or Flip Turn for momentum if you wanna try a more offensive set. Give it a try, it might actually work for you.
I believe U-turn can be better for momentum, because Flip-Turn is blocked by Water-Absorb mons such as Waterpon.
 
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I don't know if it's the right thread for this, but here is my opinion about what should and shouldn't be unbanned after DLC2. Off course, it's pure theory.

I can explain myself about some of these. I clearly think chien pao and bax are too strong, but it can depend on which mons are back. Actually, the whole "retest" list depends of which pokemons are back.
Off course, if they still are too strong, they will be banned. (Urshifu Water is in the retest list)

However, I am completely sure about the list of pokemons that should never be allowed (except Melmetal eventually but I think it won't be in the game).

I also want Gambit and Ghold to be banned, and I don't think the dlc will make them balanced, but perhaps will I be surprised. I think Ghold is far too restrictive for every single ou metagame, because of its ability, typing, and offensive power, but I know it's too late for the current metagame.
View attachment 574780
I think retesting sneasler and moon is an awful idea. With sneasler specifically nothing will have changed about it and all of its checks were fake anyway bar moltres and there's no way I can ever see roaring moon being not ban worthy at this point. Deo-D and Deo-S are never fun in OU and shouldn't be tested either bar an extremely good hazard blocker/remover and even then please no. Chien-Pao (don't fucking abbreviate that I will attack you) needs to die a permanent death, Baxcal can maybe be retested. Kyurem Base absolutely should not be retested unless it loses dragon dance. I disagree heavily with your list even if I can see your reasoning.
 

awyp

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I don't know if it's the right thread for this, but here is my opinion about what should and shouldn't be unbanned after DLC2. Off course, it's pure theory.

I can explain myself about some of these. I clearly think chien pao and bax are too strong, but it can depend on which mons are back. Actually, the whole "retest" list depends of which pokemons are back.
Off course, if they still are too strong, they will be banned. (Urshifu Water is in the retest list)

However, I am completely sure about the list of pokemons that should never be allowed (except Melmetal eventually but I think it won't be in the game).

I also want Gambit and Ghold to be banned, and I don't think the dlc will make them balanced, but perhaps will I be surprised. I think Ghold is far too restrictive for every single ou metagame, because of its ability, typing, and offensive power, but I know it's too late for the current metagame.
View attachment 574780
I don't think in any situation Chien Pao unless it got a nerf would be good to bring back to the meta, this would be the 3rd time and I think that would be a call for insanity when trying something we know doesn't work. Chien Pao is always the 'uh idk what physical attacker i should go with ill just go with pao'.

Ursaluna Blood Moon was a 93% ban when suspected, why would be bring something back when qualified voters knows it was absolute shit to the meta and is just completely brainless, there's no mons that can come back to be like ah yes now this is a OU stable lets keep it on every team just to compete with Usaluna BM when that in itself was one of the reasons it got banned is pressure on team builder.

I don't know what Urshifu that is, but it doesn't matter to call for a retest over Darkrai is kinda crazy, Darkrai isn't as crazy as any of the Urshifus Unseen Fist is a crazy ability and we know that Swords Dance + Tera Water made Urshifu RS too overwhelming for the current meta, Darkrai literally gets destroyed by U-Turn and Rillaboom Tera Grass (Choice Band) Grassy Glide OHKOs, it will be very easy to revenge kill in this meta, and has the biggest problem of all which is 4 move syndrome. If you don't run sleep you'll have a useless ability, and idk if you want to rely on Hypnosis.

Dracovish in no planet should ever come back especially with tera still legal, it will be the quickest quckban in history.
 
I don't think in any situation Chien Pao unless it got a nerf would be good to bring back to the meta, this would be the 3rd time and I think that would be a call for insanity when trying something we know doesn't work. Chien Pao is always the 'uh idk what physical attacker i should go with ill just go with pao'.

Ursaluna Blood Moon was a 93% ban when suspected, why would be bring something back when qualified voters knows it was absolute shit to the meta and is just completely brainless, there's no mons that can come back to be like ah yes now this is a OU stable lets keep it on every team just to compete with Usaluna BM when that in itself was one of the reasons it got banned is pressure on team builder.

I don't know what Urshifu that is, but it doesn't matter to call for a retest over Darkrai is kinda crazy, Darkrai isn't as crazy as any of the Urshifus Unseen Fist is a crazy ability and we know that Swords Dance + Tera Water made Urshifu RS too overwhelming for the current meta, Darkrai literally gets destroyed by U-Turn and Rillaboom Tera Grass (Choice Band) Grassy Glide OHKOs, it will be very easy to revenge kill in this meta, and has the biggest problem of all which is 4 move syndrome. If you don't run sleep you'll have a useless ability, and idk if you want to rely on Hypnosis.

Dracovish in no planet should ever come back especially with tera still legal, it will be the quickest quckban in history.
I believe if tapu are back, Urshifu-Water would be less strong, especially with Rilla and Ogerpon W in the metagame. Darkrai is way too fast and strong to be allowed in ou. It has no defensive counterplay, even without tera. Urshifu W without tera has a few defensive counterplay like pex, dondozo, amoongus, but I admit that, with tera, it is broken, but it depends of which mons are back. Anyway, it's still possible to test. Darkrai would be banned in less than a week, it wasn't the case of Urshifu Water, and there wasn't ogerpon W, or Rilla grassy Glide (and perhaps Tapu will come back). Darkrai is clearly too strong even for a test.
 
I don't think in any situation Chien Pao unless it got a nerf would be good to bring back to the meta, this would be
I don't know if it's the right thread for this, but here is my opinion about what should and shouldn't be unbanned after DLC2. Off course, it's pure theory.

I can explain myself about some of these. I clearly think chien pao and bax are too strong, but it can depend on which mons are back. Actually, the whole "retest" list depends of which pokemons are back.
Off course, if they still are too strong, they will be banned. (Urshifu Water is in the retest list)

However, I am completely sure about the list of pokemons that should never be allowed (except Melmetal eventually but I think it won't be in the game).

I also want Gambit and Ghold to be banned, and I don't think the dlc will make them balanced, but perhaps will I be surprised. I think Ghold is far too restrictive for every single ou metagame, because of its ability, typing, and offensive power, but I know it's too late for the current metagame.
View attachment 574780
Off course, Deoxys Speed should never be allowed in a metagame with Ghold...

I can't be sure about deoxys Speed and Def because I've never played in an ou metagame with these two mons allowed, but I think that 90 attk and spattk for deoxys Speed is not really good in gen9, and it's really frail, KOed by any priority or booster energy fast mon.

Anyway, that's just "what if deoxys are in dlc 2 and gholdengo is banned?" so it's a theory in a theory lol
 
what pockemon do you think will rise to OU this month?
Galarian Weezing and skeledirge, i don’t think my boi skeledirge is a good mon but it most certainly getting more usage than last time even if grassy terraina and bootspam lost crucial pokemon and i see galarian weezing alot and its alright, its main niche is providing bulky defog that isn’t blocked by the cheese man but some people have said it could get better if joe mama were to get a 5 month sentence since it could safely run levitate , garg is clearly returning to ou, it should rose last month after all
 
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